Aimee Greenberg - Director, Actor, Writer - Ukraine Project

0:00 When you feeling it small. Hello everybody. I hope you're not feeling too small today. I hope you're feeling nice and tall. This is Ray Renard and you have reached Green Room on Air, my little spot in the corner of the interwebs, how all you Greeny's doing today. It's so great that you stopped by again. And if this is your first time, let me tell you what we do here. Mostly I interview people in the world of the performing arts, sometimes people you've never heard of, sometimes people you have. And today we have a very special guest for you. And her name is Amy Greenberg.

0:41 Amy's a true New Yorker, a true New Yorker, who's worked with some of the best teachers in the business like Sanford, Meisner, WY Handman, and Stella Adler. She's got some serious off Broadway creds as well, having cut her teeth at La Mama, et cetera. Theater for the New City and the Medicine Show Theater. Amy's collaborated with some of the big names in the industry too, like Grotowski Augusta Boal. She's also raked in quite a few prestigious awards and fellowships like the Asian Cultural Council Fellowship, and a whole bunch more with her wealth of knowledge and experience.

1:28 Amy's been teaching performance technique, writing, directing theater and film studies at international conservatories and universities all across the country. So let's get into it folks. As we talked to Amy about her career experiences working with theater icons and what she thinks about the industry today. Thanks for coming on today, Amy. How are you? Good. All right. Thanks for having me. You bet. I, we just met recently, we we're working on this project together, the Ukraine project, right? Yeah. I think it's a, it's kind of like a, a hybrid project, a stage reading, but very sort of docudrama in form, I think, more than anything.

2:13 So it goes over the historical events in Ukraine, the Holden more the famine, the Maan revolution, and then, takes you up to date with some lovely poetry and, and the current war. It's a benefit for the Ivano Francoist. Frank. Frank, I don't know if I'm saying it right. Theater close enough in Ukraine, and I, I believe this is part two of this experience, that you were already involved in part one and, and did they raise money for a generator for the theater, or is that what they're doing now? I think, I think that's what they're doing now.

2:54 Originally, it was just sort of a general fund. I don't know where the money went. I know it went to them and I, I think we raised a little over $3,000. And they're, they're continuing to do productions and they're also housing people who have been affected by the war. Right. Apparently. Right. So, yeah, I mean, for me it feels good to, to feel like I'm doing something, Right. However tiny little effect it has if everybody just does a little bit and even has some good wishes or prayers, if you're religious and I get, things will help. So speaking of religion, so it's going to be Saturday, April 29th at 2:00 PM at the Ukrainian Music Hall and Event Center at the St.

3:41 Michael Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is 3 45 seventh Street in San Francisco. It's also sponsored by the Ukrainian American Coordinating Council. If you wanna get a ticket, you need to go on UK hist.org. That's exactly how it sounds. Short for history. So UK hist hst.org, and the event Bright pages there, you just press the ticket. Link, and you can make your donation there, or you can make it in person if you buy a ticket in person. So I think you can just go to Eventbrite and search on Ukraine on stage and it'll show up as well.

4:23 Oh, okay. Yeah. And I'll just put the link in the show notes so people can go directly to it. Right. Yeah. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I've just kind of organized this. I, I guess, I guess they asked a director to come in and give a, a third eye because you had too many cooks. Right. So, yeah. Well, well, we really didn't have a real, somebody who'd been a director in the past or have any experience really in directing. We had great, really good actor helping us out, but she, she wanted to find, help us find somebody else who directed, and I think she did. And, and that's how you got involved, right. So tell us about yourself. How did, how did you get started in theater? Oh, gosh. Middle school. Yeah, middle, middle school, drama, middle, middle school angst.

5:07 And I think it saved, I think theater saved my life at some point, not just, that's a dramatic statement, but, it was the expressive tool and I continued it in high school. I was always a writer too though. But then I, I got into acting and in college I thought maybe I would study marine biology cuz I love the, the ocean. But then I went back to theater. So yeah, that's how I started. It's been a long, long road. It was similar for me. I started in middle school and, and then like the guy who interviewed you on the other podcast I got into sports is I was listening to this. I was like, God, this is, I think he already did my podcast, but yeah, you two should connect.

5:50 You should do a pod. You should be his guest on a podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So I remember, I think you and I are around this same age and we have kids around the same age, and I remember back when I was in high school and college, marine biology was like a, a kind of a big cool thing to do. Yeah. You used to have a lot of people say they wanted to be in. Involved in marine biology, but, and then the math, the math came into the picture and I was like, oh, oh no. For me it was chemistry. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. I, I still don't get it. I, I mean all the, the hooking up, the little molecules and everything, I just right way beyond my capacity as a romantic aspect of, going out into the sea and, and, and, and touching sea life and, analyzing them.

6:37 But it was a lot more technical Oh, it's way more scientific than that. Yeah. It's not just playing with dolphins and talking to whales. Right, right. Yeah. So did you, did you go to school? Did you go to college or did you get a master's in anything that had to do with the I did. Or I Oh, where did you go? Well, I, I, I went to a bunch of schools. I went to Buffalo, I went to, I graduated from Queens College. I was briefly at N Y U, not, not really to. To, matriculate there, but just to do some work. And then I got well then I went, then I just studied in New York. the benefit of, of having New York City as your, your hometown and your playground as an actor was really invaluable.

7:23 because I could do, what they do at NYU is they farm, you pay a lot of money and then they farm you out to these acting studios. So I, I got my degree and also in, in film and English, and then I was able to go and study with Sandy Meisner and, and Stella Adler and, and Win Handman, who is Sandy Meisner's partner. And then he, he branched out on his own. He started the American Place Theater and he was just a phenomenal teacher, like a, an incredible influence on me. And Wyn Handman was, yeah. Yeah. I mean, all of them were, but yeah, Wynn had a way of just getting, figuring out who you were, where you were at, and then, taking you where you're at in terms of characters and roles and, and, and scenes and playwrights and then, stretching you and having you play thing, play characters that you, you, you wouldn't get cast in necessarily, that you didn't, you weren't that type, So he was brutally honest, but he was kind and a kind curmudgeon.

8:27 And I just learned a lot from him. We did a lot of material ranging from Sam Shepherd and, and every actor you can imagine. So we got some juicy material and. Yeah, I was honored and privileged to work with him and work with the people that he worked with and, be part of that small, small club. I wound up later on getting a master's in California for, for drama therapy, but that's, that's related, but different, but I won't talk about it right now. Okay. Not a lot of drama therapists around, I don't think. Yeah. Wow. So, I don't know a lot about Wyhand and it sounds very intriguing. Well, there's a great documentary on Netflix called, it Takes a Lunatic and you should watch it.

9:13 It's all about him. It's, it's long, but yeah, it's fantastic. Okay. I am definitely going to watch that because I don't, I don't know a lot about him. Of course, I know a lot about Sandy Meisner and Stella Adler. Yeah. Well, he, he worked with Sandy for a long time and then, And then left and started his, his own thing. He died a couple years ago, I found out from Covid, and, and he was, he was like 94 and Yeah. Yeah. Well, at least he had a long life. Yep. Was he similar in Sandy Meiser in the way that he taught? Yeah, I mean he, he, Sandy took him under his wing and then, was his, he was like his protege, but he was like a different style.

9:55 Sandy was extremely abrasive, but everyone loved him for that too. But, so, Sandy's big thing was repetition and those exercises related to that. When did a little bit of that, like during the scene study, if he would do different exercises to get you. More connected to the character or, more committed to the moment or figuring out what was lacking or missing or, he was very big on as ifs the imaginary as if Hmm. Yes. I think it, well I was playing Saint Joan and sort of like Michael Checkoff, I guess. Yeah, yeah. I remember he said to me, he gave me the role of Joan and Shaw, St.

10:38 John and it was really a great, a great thing he did cuz it boosted my, my confidence and he was like, what do you, what do you feel like, what, what is the, as if and I think I said like, it's as if I'm holding the whole world, the world is just like this ball and I've got it in my hands and, it just like went right into the material and that was it. I love that. Yeah, I love that because it really helps you learn how to use your imagination and apply it to the scene. Yeah. He was very big on the imagination and the given circumstances, of course. And he just knew so much about every style, and, and so many playwrights that he had, he had worked with or, he just knew their material.

11:24 So there was neat. And Stella Adler, I, I took classes for about five years from a woman named Jean Shelton here in San Francisco, who was one of Stella Adler's longtime students. And Stella had the reputation of being pretty, pretty rough on people, right? Yeah. I think, she was rough. She, she. It's a, it's a stereotype. I mean, it's a, it's a generalization, but she, she tended to like men more than women. She tended to talk about Marlon Brando a lot, who she sort of cultivated and, brushed out into the world there. So she was very, very passionate and dramatic, would like rip her shirt or, do things if she was exasperated.

12:10 And so that was her. She had someone Pearl who taught with her, which was, she was much more subdued. So I, I took some classes with her. Stella's script interpretation class was phenomenal. Yes. And, and so was Jean who, who learned from Stella, who was one of her proteges. And I learn, learned so much from that script analysis. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I find, I don't know about you, but a lot of newer actors these days, they don't. Understand the importance, and I'm not trying to dis anybody here, but I, it's, I was driven into me by her, by Jean, that it's so important to get into the details of every word and beat in the script and really understand what the author is trying to do, and be very, very specific about what it is that's in, in the words.

13:02 And it's, yeah, super important. And the objectives and yeah, the objectives instead of ge being general about everything. Well, the, the u the young people, they, they, if they don't have the training, they don't have the patience. They don't have the attention span because, everything's very quick, quick moving, and, everything's very visual now. So, I mean, there are people that don't even read, there are lots of people that they can read, but they don't read anymore. So to make someone really dig into a script I don't know. I don't know how young, young actors that are working professionally, especially in film and tv. I, I don't know how they, they deal with it, but that's a whole other medium.

13:44 No. Yeah. It's another, another thing. But I just love how she taught us how to look at a script, sort of as if you had a microscope and you're really getting into it. And what does every moment mean to you at that, in that scene. And as the character, it's, I, it's just fascinating and I loved it anyway. Can you tell me about the Dark Moon of Lilith? I was really intrigued by that on your website? Yeah. Oh, Lilith. I, I love that piece. things come to me when I'm creating something, that's original, like an image flies outta nowhere. And that's usually like the first image. The primary image for me, in, in creating my own work image is essential, image as metaphor, and that's how it starts.

14:31 I, I, I don't remember what the first image was with Lilith, but I would, if I looked at the beginning of the script, which I can no longer find, cuz it was done on another computer and I disappeared. But I have video of it, so I transcribe it. But anyway, that's another story. Ancient technology, right? Oh, you can use AI actually now to, you could, if you have a video, it can listen to the words and translate the whole thing and I can show you how to do that later. Okay, cool. If you're interested. So, and it's really easy. I was like, I was intrigued with the goddess and this, this, there was a lot of material, a lot of literature, this book about the sacred prostitutes from way, way, way back.

15:15 And there were all these connections that I was making with like a Lilith, the Lilith from the Bible as some, some evil, evil, evil woman, the evil side of Eve, and a modern day, what would be like a modern day Lilith. And yeah. So there was just a lot going on for me. And at the same time, I was digging into research about this serial killer who I wound up going to high school with and who lived at the end of my block when I grew up. So I somehow incorporated his story into all the Lils were like either feminine or masculine.

15:56 They were Lilith and, and, and Liam. He was, he was the serial killer. And I had another version of Lilith. I can't remember the name right now, but, so a and I used a lot of like physical, it was very, very physical. I used mask, I used found objects. I used a lot of vocal, I did a lot of vocal work and like sound work and. Yeah, I created this thing about the story of Lilith going like all the way back to, the witches, to the modern day. And it was all vocalized and it was really like, I used video, I used, I was I did a lot of like, very specific isolated movement, like Pluto in it.

16:36 I made the costumes. I created this seaweed mandala that every night I would, I would've to dr every weekend every performance I would have to get a new bunch of seaweed from the ocean, right? There's the ocean again. Clean it, dry it. And then I would like, I would paint it, I would put flowers in it, and then the opening scene, I would come out of this mound of seaweed with masks on, and I would go back into the mound to change the masks. So it was all the faces of Lilith. And it was, it was an incredibly, what's the word? Labor intensive show. And it was very successful in, in the world that, it was in, I did a lot of one woman shows a lot of LA women's festival in la I was at the Carpenter se Carpenter Center in Long Beach.

17:24 I took it to Finland for a women's festival. It was down at sushi in San Diego when sushi was alive. That's where I premiered it, I think. Yeah. So, and I was also pregnant with my daughter, three months pregnant when I first did it. So that was really interesting. So this was a one person show, Lilith? It was, it was, it was me and at one point, oh no, I think I had at Huntington Beach first with a violinist on stage and yeah, she wasn't always with me, but. it sounds very avantgarde, so I, I guess it was, yeah, it was, it was that one, swinging back in time and to the present and the future.

18:07 And my chiropractor had given me like one of those spines that they have, Yeah. And he said I could just keep it. So I used that a and I had a pomegranate in, in, in the pelvic area that sat there. And I also use these masks that they use when you have radiation, like on your face. they make a, like a knitted mask. So I hung those and I was able to kind of put my face in it and suspend myself and very, very cool. Neat. Oh, I think I saw a picture of that on your website. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you should bring that, you should do it again and bring it to the Fringe festival that they have in France. It's similar to Edinburgh.

18:48 Oh yeah. Love it. I think I'm too old for it now. Physic You did this in the late nineties? Yeah, I did it in the nineties and the I maybe early, maybe 2000. I, I don't know, I, I don't know when I stopped. I think it said 94 to 98. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, I can't think, I don't have the physical I don't know. I could probably, yeah. You'd have to adapt it maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But think a lot of times passed. Right. I, that blows my mind. I mean, I think, oh, that wasn't that long ago. Oh yeah, it was. That's a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like you enjoy plays that explore, and you've said this on your website, dystopian worlds and identity and alienation and loss.

19:33 Mm-hmm. What can you tell me about that? It sounds like Lilith was sort of in that ilk. Yeah. I, I think that, All my plays that were, original work, solo or ensemble, I mean, and things that I've written and plays I'm drawn to. I think loss and identity and alienation tho those are like recurring themes for me. I have my own personal story of, having lost my mother at a very long age very long, very, very early age. And I'm adopted. there are just things that are built into that, that, that are part of my d n a literally that evoke that, that this theme keeps returning and, and also is strange.

20:18 But, there's something about the, the Holocaust experience that in one form or another, returns to a lot of things I do, whether it's just a German character or. Something literal from that time, or, one of the plays I wrote, light Falling Down was inspired by five years of interviews with women who, from Southern California who survived the, the show the, or the Holocaust. I didn't seek it out. They just sort of came to me and, they would wanna tell me their story. And then I had all these stories, I didn't know quite what to do with. So, and even in Lilith there's an entertainer who's, from, from f from the Holocaust who has to entertain for the Germans.

21:00 So, I don't know where that comes from. Like, I mean, I have family way back. I have no idea who they were, but they were part of that. But, well it seems like from my experience, people who've grown up in Jewish households have a lot of sort of historical. Grief around that whole horrible situation. And I would guess that's where it comes from. Yeah. They, they have a word for it now, a, a term I forgot, but it has to do with, like the, the d n a has this memory and I forgot what they, what they call it now, which is why, four generations forward, someone is still suffering because it's part of them.

21:42 And the same thing with the slave experience, yes, they've learned that your D n A can actually change from trauma, which is they didn't, they had no idea that that was possible before. And they know that it does now. That's incredible actually. It is incredible. Yeah. And, and I sort of, I think we always knew it on some level, a metaphysical level, spiritual level. The, the ensemble piece that I did I directed and wrote and had a small part in and produced before I left San Diego, American Carnage, A love story that is also, I'm, I'm, I'm looking like it's, it was, it was in some ways really a ahead of its moment, but I, I call it an unlikely love story.

22:28 it's like sci-fi, it's part thriller. And I, and it, I was, I was inspired to write it after the whole, Trump, the year of Trump the year after he became president. And that, that pivotal moment where I say in, there's a character who's, who's Caligula, but he's really Trump, he's really a lot of dictators in this piece, and he has a monologue and there's a, there's a moment where the screen went from blue to red, like literally when he became president, it was the Obama transition, and then it was this fire engine red, and, the, the flag came on and the static and the anthem, So and I was just kind of, it was that year after where everything was unbelievable.

23:11 It was like one thing after another of, of such a high theater that you couldn't even, you couldn't write this stuff. So that was my inspiration. And then out of that, I don't know, king, this character, Y m l stands for young male lead, who's an Octa bot, cuz now we're, we're also transitioning into AI and into the, the robot. So he's an Okta bot, which is, he's evolved from like a species. So he's part, part robot, part human. And he's exposed to the, the echoes of the second millennium popular culture, which triggers these feelings in him from the, the, the Museum of Obsolete Media. And he didn't expect to have these feelings. He's kind of set up and he thinks he's playing like a video game, but it's real life and he's tasked to like, eliminate people, really it's like a, a genocide, right? So that was my foray into, l a more literal, dystopian, world sort of science fiction, dystopian impression.

24:12 Yeah. All at once. And I, I, yeah, I, it's when, when I read about that play and you did that five or six years ago, what it made me ask myself is I wonder if Amy had any idea how bad it could have gotten after that. Like, So many things kept happening in this country because of Trump and his creation of carnage, or whatever you wanna call it. Did, what do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, I think I was ta tapping into something and this, this could still be done now, and the, and, and with the, more technical fireworks than than ever.

24:56 I, I mean, I had a, a hologram presence, but I didn't use, use an actual hologram. I had projections, but now I could use vr. I mean, but, but content wise, I mean, I had, yeah, right. I had no idea how, how bad it could get. And of course, what was around the corner was the, the pandemic, maybe you could add that in and, and, and re and produce it over with the pandemic in, in, in the story. Yeah. I still have the flats and storage, and it's just, I never got rid of the set and I don't know, but I never, I just, I don't know. It's not the right moment, It's gotta be like the right time and place and moment and I don't know who's interested in this kind of work here, but where I am right now.

25:40 But that's another thing. I mean, there was a time in the Bay Area when people were doing a lot of that kind of work. Yeah. George Coats maybe 30, 40, 50 years ago. Yeah. Even, even, I don't know. I remember coming up 15. Yeah. George Coats. He was phenomenal. Yeah. God, I guess it was a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Things have changed. It's a little bit more mainstream now, I would say, but, Who knows, things go in cycles. Right. What do you see as the biggest challenges facing our industry in the next few years? Hmm.

26:21 I knew you were gonna ask me that. Do you want the answer? I, I would like to say, or the answer I should say Whatever you want. I mean, I would like the answer that you would like to say if you're feel, if you feel comfortable with it. Well, I, I think there's a few challenges. One is the pandemic showed us that theater is disposable. And and what? That's disposable. What, what do you mean it's disposable? Well, we can shut down everything, including theater. And I, I, theater has always struggled. It's always been hard to do what we do. And then, and then add to that, that, people don't wanna go outside. They don't wanna sit next to you.

27:02 They don't wanna breathe your air. They don't wanna be in a closed space with no windows. They'll go out to dinner. And maybe get covid from a waiter, but, or someone else. But they, they won't go to theater. So attendance has really fallen. Mm-hmm. And subscription based is challenged. people are getting older and aging out of, of theater, so they have, theater has to find a new audience that can afford to go to theater. So then you, places like Williamstown Theater Festival, they're, they're doing a lot less produ producing. So they don't have as many shows, but because of that, they're not making the money they need. So it's a, where are they located? Massachusetts.

27:43 Okay. They're a big, house that, that does some great work that goes on, or, but they've had, some, some issues come up. I, I mean, so, and I think, but from the, the digital our transfer to the digital medium has showed us that. It's not going away either. So I think theater has to pivot and has to incorporate some aspect of the digital medium, whether it's XR or vr or relying more on projections or zoom in. Its many manifestations. I mean, I don't know if pure theater can sustain, that's gonna be a big question.

28:25 I think in the, in the next coming years, the new generation. And maybe it shouldn't because I've always been interested in using other materials, and using multimedia, interdisciplinary, whatever. I mean, not always, but I, I just saw a Doll's house in New York on Broadway, and it was all, it was all minimal. they didn't really have a set except for something in the center that turned around. Circle the lighting was black and, very stark, lot of shadows. They just wore black. There were no props. Yeah, I read about that in the Times and it, they, they pulled it off, and it was like, if you have very solid acting and directing, you can do it.

29:09 Mm-hmm. Extraordinary. Not just solid, but, so I think that's one challenge. And another challenge is, I don't know how quite to say it, but I mean we're, we're gonna have to come to terms with the polarization that exists now between, you mean within the community of, of theater makers? Yeah. Between young theater makers and, and older theater makers. Between white theater makers and bipo theater makers, and who can do what and what's allowed to be done and what's allowed to be said. And how, how close we're gonna ride within the margins and what the cross-cultural, if any experience is going to be.

29:54 And, and what, what do we think theater is? What, what, what do we wanna create in the future? What is the new generation we wanna create? Is it only based on, identity politics and very, very literal, or is there still a place for, images, metaphor for, art for art's sake? And then, the, the universal univers universality of that. And, does, do the politics come out of the art? Does the message come out of the art? but art for art's sake is kind of a dirty, dirty phrase right now. And I, I, I, and when I was listening to the other podcast episode that you did a few years ago with the, with the other folks there, I forget the name of the podcast, intellect Yuel.

30:41 Yes. And again, I'm not criticizing anybody here, but I just noticed at the end he said something like yes, we as artists are, have a responsibility to tell people what they can and cannot say. And I just wanted to like heave because I just totally don't agree with that. I, I think that artists should be able to say what they wanna say, and if you don't like it, you can say you don't like it. If you like it, you can say you like it. But the whole, the literal, the literalism and the, the policing of what is okay to do and what isn't, I think that just kills things because we, as artists, you need to push the limits in whatever direction you want, and people can decide for themselves what they like and don't like.

31:27 That's why, I mean, that's what art, art as anarchy is supposed to be, Yeah. I mean, there are things that I just, I can't, I can't do here. I I will not, I didn't think I could do them in the Bay Area and I, I mean, in San Diego, and I did them, but I felt like, the majority was more, more traditional work and, tourist based, and there's a strong military presence there. But here it's like the other reason, people say, well, why don't you do this? And why don't you do that? And why don't you do, and I'm like, no, I can't do that here. I I I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna produce that. I'm not gonna direct a play like that here. So, and that's a recent phenomenon, San Francisco.

32:07 And, and that's what I'm having trouble coming to terms with because I, I've grew up in this area. I've, I've lived here my whole life and I've been acting and directing here most of my life. And I, I'm having a hard time getting used to this, this whole sort of thing where it's okay to, to say certain things and it's not okay to say other things. And I always enjoyed the freedom and, and the ability to express ourselves as artists in San Francisco and be accepted or not, but not be condemned. And now you have to worry about every little thing you say and do. And I, I maybe I'm too, being too blunt about it, but that's how I feel.

32:49 It would be great to have like a Lenny Bruce equivalent, do a comedy routine about this. It would, and it, it'd have to be good at it. I mean, George Carlin used to be really good at it. he wasn't from San Francisco, of course, but we need people like that. Chris Rock, his latest show on Netflix, selective outrage is hilarious. I mean, we're gonna have to watch it. He talks about, don't fall into the woke trap. Yeah. And it's like, and if you say that to a lot of progressive people, they get so angry. Yeah. And, and then they call you a Republican and a maga. And I, I think there's a good, I just, I don't even want to use the word woke anymore because it, it, it is so loaded now.

33:32 Yeah. I, somebody said to me that the Bay Area is very binary. The theater world is very binary. In what sense? either or, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, non-binary is, is term used, to about, to denote gender or the lack of gender, or the flexibility of, of, of gender. Right. But, she said it's very binary here. It's either this or that. Yes, you're this or you're that. You're with us or you're against us. Right. Whatever group it happens to be. And, and, and, and there's no hesitancy to to call you out on things without even trying to understand where you're coming from. Yeah.

34:12 And some of it's generational too. I, I feel like there's very little respect for people who have come before, who have a lot of experience who, may have some something to impart. there, there's no, no interest in that. No, no. There, there isn't. I even ha, I have, I have those conflicts with my own 20 year old son. He, there's sort of a, and, and of course, young people always believe that they're smarter than the old, right? I mean, I did. But it's to the point now where they're absolutely sure about it. And I, and maybe I'm just become an old curmudgeon, but I can't figure, I'm just having a hard time figuring out how to, to navigate that whole sort of phenomena.

34:56 But it's like, it's as if we don't know anything. We just don't, we just aren't up on the latest intellectual Understanding of how people should be in society. I'm trying to see it as a learning experience. Now. Gosh, you've won lots of awards, the Asian Cultural Council Fellowship, is that the one where you went to Japan? It it is, yeah. Can I hear about that? I, that I found that really interesting. Yeah, that was great. I, I did, I, there was a time, there was a time where grants were really plentiful and it's a little harder now, but I self-taught, self-taught grant writer and gave them the lingo they wanted to hear and got the grants most of the time and, and, and followed through.

35:42 But, I just taught myself the, the language and that was one of the best ones. And, when I got the grant, they basically like gave me the money and. Connected me to someone from, I think the Japan Society who gave me some names and connected me to this, no, this American who was living in Japan forever as a, a no master in teacher. And he had the biggest house in Tokyo, so I stayed with him. But could you tell us what no theater is so that people know what you're talking about? Yeah. No is the classical theater of Japan and they use masks that represent characters that are like beautifully painted masks and they don't cover the whole face deliberately.

36:28 And it's a, it's a dance movement. It has a whole vocabulary. It's extremely slow, meticulous. You wear certain shoes, you move on stage a certain way with lifting the foot, putting it down. You open the fan a certain way. And they have all these set dances, like, like a, a classical repertoire. And they have like the bridge that goes to heaven. There's always on the set, Kyogen is the comedic side of No. And they play a certain music on stage. I forgot the name of the, the primary instrument right now. But that is always a accompanying, accompanying the piece. It's beautiful.

37:09 It's very hard. I was able to perform on the national No stage, and they sew you into your kimono, And yeah it was really, really hard. I, I. Actually studied Bau more than no when I was there. What is bau? Bau is like the anco bau. It's the, it's the, it's the dance of darkness, it's called it's more symbolic. It, it's symbolic and metaphoric in a different way. And it came about post-war, post World War II after, Hiroshima and hijita was like the, the, I guess the founder of, of BAU in a way. But then there's Kazuo a lot of, a lot of different masters.

37:51 I don't know if you remember know of Sanaii Juku, they, they kind of, they've toured all over America. I studied with them and I interviewed a lot of the masters, min Tanaka who had a farm where he would like teach people how to. How to work on the farm and, and like kind of almost break down your body. And then you can also learn Bau it the same way I, I planted rice on that farm. But very physical, very, very slow movement and very, very fast movement and a lot of a, using a lot of imagery. Exhausting, exhausting work. It's the best way to describe it. it's a, they wear a lot of white, white, almost white face, but not, not in the traditional clown sense, but not always, but a lot of times Whiteface white body, done in the nude, done barely any clothing done with costume.

38:46 Like, it, it just depends. It's fascinating. Fascinating. So I studied that and I studied little Kabuki and little Bunraku, which is their classical, puppetry form. Basically I was given money and said, do whatever you wanna do. Write us a little note at the end of what your trip was like, and have a good time. what an incredible experience. And I was very nervous cuz it was so unstructured. But they said, you're gonna, you're gonna look at this as the best grant you ever got. And they were right Cause the people I met that were doing what I was doing or trying to, were teaching English all day and, and then trying to have to study and, and or perform and go to go to plays. And I saw so much theater and dance and I went to Hokkaido too, which was, completely different culture.

39:33 And saw some rituals and festivals and I went to Kyoto and Yeah, I had a great time. I had a great time. When was this and how long? I was there for four months and it was this 90, 95, 19 95. Yeah. What an incredible experience feel like a dinosaur. Yeah. The year before I went to Russia, and that was an experience working with a theater there because they were recently had transitioned sort of, out of communism. So that was interesting. And then I went to Japan. Yeah. What did you do in Russia? I taught and I directed at the at this experimental theater c and conservatory in Pushkin.

40:17 Where, St where Catherine the greats castle was a little, little city outside of St. Petersburg. Very interesting. Yeah. So, wow, that was cool. Wow. You've had so many great experiences. Yeah. I have to remind myself that when I feel like, in those dry times when you're not doing anything theater related, that's the thing about this whole profession. It's like you always think back and say, oh, those were the good times when I was doing all the wonderful things and now I'm not doing anything. But you don't know cuz things come up or you can make things happen sometimes. Yeah. I, I think that that's, that's what people have to do and hold on to.

40:59 You can't just wait for someone to give you a gig. You gotta create your own work. You do, you do. Especially as time goes on in the decades. Keep moving forward. I had a little bit experience of experience working with somebody who had trained in Japan and what I loved about it, because he just let us dip our toes into it. Was the physicality of it, like you said, and how in the United States, because of Stans Lasky and, and, and the method, we kind of do things from the inside out. But tell me if I'm wrong here, but what it seemed to me was there was a lot of taking something on physically and then letting it get into you.

41:42 And I, I actually loved it isn't it? And in fact, and it, and it seemed, it was a completely different experience. It, it felt more surreal and it, and enlivened me. I, I loved the little bit of it that I did. Yeah. when Hamman used to say, suit the action to the word, and the word to the action, and, the way you play Shaw is completely different from the way you're gonna play Shepherd. and, and Sam Shepherd is about music and Shaw is about words and, so everything is has, has to be treated. According to the form, or you, you really can ruin something in Japan. They've spent centuries, refining the form.

42:24 So yeah, it comes from the outside in. A lot of it is taught by re repetition. A lot of it is transmitted from father to son, it's a sexist, but like in no, they strap the baby on the dad's back when they're young and the father goes through the moves. And I, I struggled with it at first because, first of all, it's, some of it was completely foreign. Some of it I felt like I knew already in my body and, I'd worked with a, in a lot of the Greek stuff and I'm very physical. But they give you the fan and they show you something like three times and you're supposed to repeat it, And that's it, Even, I got hit because I didn't open a fan correctly or something. So, they whack you. And I was just like, my gosh, that does not happen back home or in the west, Right.

43:10 And I, I, I remember just being enraged by this, tiny man who was like the master, who smacked me. But I digress. But yeah, very, very, a lot of things are from the outside in and, but when they, they talk about the, the ma and the why, this moment of expansiveness and know with silence and breath, where everything stops and you can't help but feel from that, Kabuki is very physical, So a lot of that has to, has to happen from the, from the outside in. I'd say BAU is different. Like Bau reminded me a little more of Grotowski work where it's very, very physical. And very internal and it's just kind of laid bare, laid bare well, it's, it is so, it's such an education to go to another country like that, that's had so many centuries of a technique that's developed.

44:05 It's so different. Yeah. And so much tension and patience. just when you think about it, like the, the bunraku master puppeteers, like there's, there's one person for each part. There's one puppeteer that spends his lifetime working on only the left arm of the puppet. only the left arm, it's like, yeah. It, yeah. The, the, the puppetry, it was phenomenal. So emotional and lifelike and vulnerable. Yeah. It. It's true. It is just sort of, everything they do there, like the, the flower arranging, the tea ceremonies, I would say it is close, close to perfection, just very enviable, that, that discipline.

44:52 Now you've also written some books. Yeah, I'm working on one now. I just, I must, I must finish this first draft. I, I do not wanna be one of those people who, for the, for the rest of their life, talks about the book they're working on. What are you working on? I hate those people. I'm afraid that it's gonna be me. Oh, no. Well this book is a long time coming and it's really, I wrote a screenplay called Birthright. Which was about my adoption story and, and in essence meeting my biological parents. And what, what ensued after that. And I had some good feedback from it, but, I didn't keep pushing it and I didn't have the money to produce it, so it's it's on, on the desktop like a lot of things.

45:39 But I had a friend who was very inspirational, who just kept saying, this is, you should write a book, the, these are stranger than fiction. These, these, this story. And just write a book. And so writing a book it's auto fiction, I guess you'd call it. I don't wanna call it memoir because I do fictionalize some things and I'd like to stay pure to the term memoir. Memoir, But I think auto fiction is the, the most current genre I can fit it into. It's kind of Genre bending a little bit. And yeah, so I've been working on that. So it's inspired about you meeting your biological parents? Ye yes.

46:20 It's inspired by that. Yeah. There were, there was a set of circumstances that were kind of extraordinary that nobody really knew. So you wanna share what those were? No. Okay. Yeah, you'll have to read the book. Ok. Well, it better happen then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was like a coincidence that really couldn't have been quite a coincidence, but, oh, well, that, that's like the, that's, that's part of it. It's not the whole thing. But, then we go back to those themes again of, identity and, and loss and, this discovery and so I just took a recent trip back to New York and, Stumbled upon a lot of the settings that are in the book, and that was kind of cool.

47:03 Yeah. So it was, it, it made it all, fresh again, it, it's hard to, it's hard to write about and it's hard to write a book. It's easy to write a play in some ways. It's easy to write a performance. It's easy. I've been at arts journalist too for a period of time when my kids were little, and, it's easy. You have a story, you have a word count, but a book is like this, this, this pool that you dive into and, then you, then you, then I get stuck in all this research, and then I go down this rabbit hole and then I, I, and then I get, and then it's just too much and I put it away. And then, I, I need some distance and. And then I, why is it, is it, was the structure good? Is it right? Is it point, what's the point of view? Is it, is it first person, third person, omni mission? does it matter? Like, I don't, so very wide open.

47:50 There's all the rules and then you can break the rules, but you have to sort of know how you're breaking the rules and have some kind of pattern in the breaking of the rules, Yes, yes. I, I, I, I, I can understand that because in a, in a play or a screenplay, you have, your two act or your three act play, or your three act screenplay, and most, most screenplays follow that sort of structure. And, your limited in terms of describing the situation indoors or outdoors. You have the dialogue and then you have to keep things moving. But in a, in a book, you can kind of do whatever you want. Yeah. You as many pages as you feel like you can, yeah, you can, you can do what you want.

48:31 And I'm just going to, I'm just doing what I want. I, I, I took a. A workshop with this writer and agent and, I, I just agonized during the whole thing about this, this point of view, cuz it's very important. But, I do like switch point of view, which is, to some editors and publishers and agents that's like a, and readers, that's like a, a, a sin. I was like, that's what I keep going back to that I'm in the story and then I'm, I comment on the story, I mean, and in my own form. So that's where I'm at now. I could write a, a, a pure memoir, right? I remember when I was the, but it's not, it's not happening like that.

49:15 So I'm all about that cuz WY Handman too. See, he really stuck with me. He said ballast and he says it in this, Documentary, ballast yourself in reality, then take off. and it's really fundamental in any art form. Know the foundation. Know the classics, no Shakespeare and no moer and, and no, Shaw and no modern drama. And know it, know it, know how to play it. Know the music of it. analyze it, know, know you, know how to, how to find your objectives and your beats, all that. And then you wanna, you wanna do something different or what, could be called experimental or whatever.

49:56 Break the form, break it, know what you're breaking, and then break the form, break the conventions, start your own, I think it's possible with anything, but you have to know, you have to have the background. And it is an interesting little scene. I don't know if you saw Tar with Kate Blanchett movie. It's a great scene that's become very controversial and I, I always wanna ask young people what they think of it, but she's in a, she's a conductor, and she's in a class, so remember the scene when she's at Julliard and she's teaching a class? Yes. Very much. I very much remember that scene. Remember that scene? And she, yeah, she said, and he said, I, I can't relate. I'm, I'm a person of color, and I, I can't relate to Bach.

50:40 And she said, well, you, you better know Bach. Because, because of what he did, because of how he broke the rules and what he established, and how it influenced music. Every, every culture. And then you can decide what you wanna do about Bach. But, yeah, that scene was very controversial, right? Yes, it was. But I think that that scene sort of exactly outlines what we were discussing before about this, the conflict that exists right now in, in art. Right. And I loved that scene, and I can understand why people are upset with it. I can also understand why I think it's a great scene. Yeah. And I'm glad that they had the, the nerve to stick it in there and not take it outta the movie.

51:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too. I was really because it makes people have a conversation and I'm glad that they did it right. And it, it, and it is a controversial scene and I understand why, but I think it was important to keep it in. Yeah, me too. Me too. I was, I was shocked too that they was in there and it's a question you have to have, right. I mean and it's also, it also the whole thing about motivation. Like what was her motivation? Is she racist? Is she ageist? Is she not? Is she just trying to teach a lesson? And you can make all these judgments about a person, but you really don't know what's going on inside her head. Right. Until you have the conversation. Yeah. Until you ask her, Yeah. And decide if she's telling the truth. Right. Right. it's, it's so complicated and we're facing these things and I hope that we can.

52:05 Well, eventually, we'll, we'll sort it out. See, this is the question and the conversations we should be having. Absolutely. I'm so excited right now that we're having this Yeah. That we're having. But I mean, yeah. We should also be able to have these conversations together with the younger generation and with Bob Rock artists, Yeah. Instead of just having the door shut, it's like why, why can't we have these conversations? I have tried a couple of times, and I think every time it's been on Zoom and what's happened every single time, the person I was trying to have a conversation with or a group of people, some people actually get so upset to hang up and, and I did nothing disrespectful. I just asked a question because I'm trying to understand something and you people get so emotional they can't do it.

52:51 No. They, they feel like they, they don't have to and don't want to teach. Anyone or explain anything. Yeah. It's called emotional labor, I guess, from Yeah. Yeah. Which I don't understand that either. I mean, everyone has to do some labor if you're gonna understand what's going on in another person's head or what it's like to be in their shoes. Right, right. But we'll get there. I have so much hope. I, I think that people, everything always swings back and forth and somehow gets to the middle and then things get screwed up again, and then we get back to the middle. And right now we're just sort of on one side of the pendulum, I believe, and we'll retrain.

53:34 Yeah. Yeah. It's painful being on one side of the pendulum, but it's the hardest one I've ever been through in my lifetime. Yeah. In terms of, in terms of the art, the art, art, art world or the, the performance folder or entertainment or whatever you wanna call it. And, we should be able to do work about this. We really should be able to put Yeah. Put this in a play and put it on stage and let people chew on it and think about it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I understand where people's grievances come from. I totally do. Whether it's age or race or whatever. I understand. What advice would you give somebody who wants to get into, to, into this world of theater or film or writing? I don't think it's responsible for older people to put people in leadership roles that have no training or experience.

54:26 I think if you wanna get into it, commit to it, get the training, if it's, if, if it's the burning passion, then, put the discipline behind it. Figure out what your voice is and what you wanna say. really, I mean, there's so many ways to go about things. I, I. I left the commercial world and sometimes I regret that. But when I see people I know on, on television usually, but I know that, how that feels. Yeah. So, I don't know, you have to decide like why you're an artist and, I do think people should get other skills. I, I do think my father said that and I said it to my kids, like, you don't wanna be a waiter your whole life, right? if things don't work out, you should know how to, how to monetize, monetize different aspects of your, your skillset so that you're not dependent.

55:20 I think that there's a desperation in this business that's really dangerous. It draws people that have a lot of trauma and a lot of unresolved issues and a lot of insecurities and, That emptiness, that abyss, And when they're not working, you just kind of fall into that abyss, oh, I'm worthless. And that, it's just very dangerous, I think. And you have to get your shit together. You have to be grounded, you have to, have a center, you have to be stable, so all those things are important. So, yeah. Just just as a footnote, cuz I've been talking about so many things that I did in the, the nineties, the two thousands.

56:01 But so since I came here, I did do a it was, it was a, it was in the march during Covid. Dragon Theater, which no longer exists, but I did do a show, the Making of American Carnage was like a solo satire almost of the whole experience, cuz it was a lot of a lot of replacing of people, a revolving door of actors for, one, one reason or another had things going on in their life where they couldn't commit to the project. And so anyway, that was interesting. And then I've, I've just done a lot of readings of new plays and some online, some live, but something I'm working on, which is a, is a long-term project that, but I'm excited about it.

56:44 It's about climate change and it's gonna be bicoastal and we're trying to do a live performance and a virtual performance and somehow integrate that and even incorporate the, the, this the mid coast, right? The Gulf Coast. So I have a, a partner in New York who runs Peculiar Theater Works, and so we're working with our writers now and, it's a long haul, but so is climate change, right. And it's a piece about climate change. Is it a. Yeah, I'd say like we have the writers working on different, they're, they're each working on their different scenes. I don't know if it's going to wind up being like a series or a play or a play and performance, we'd like a live component, but we also wanna explore a lot of the, the new technologies.

57:34 And that's gonna be the, the hard, the hardest part, I think. Yeah. But I think that's a good, good idea. Like you said earlier, I think we have to incorporate that into our performances for, to, to stay up with, to stay current, to get people to come. I saw a, oh, who, what was the writer? I can't remember the writer. It's a writer. A, a, a classic. I can't remember who it was right off the top of my head, but it was at a c t about 10 years ago. And it was a Canadian theater company that came down and they did music and, and they did like gymnastics and it was a, it was like a classic play. I can't remember which one, but they had a screen that filled the entire back of the Gary Theater and it was video, black and white with incredible sound that sounded extremely realistic.

58:25 And it was a subway most of the time with a train going by. And people on stage would go through the screen and then all of a sudden they would be in the play as an actor on the. Like just continuing the scene seamlessly. Yeah. Yeah. It was incredible. Isn't that great? Was that Robert LaPage, the Canadian? I think so, yeah. I feel like, and they had these amazing musicians and all the actors were musicians. Yeah. I, I love stuff like that. Oh, me too. It was, it was just amazing. So I just hope we can do more of that kind of thing. Well, it sounds interesting what you're doing with this climate change thing. I'll be looking forward to that.

59:06 Yeah. I hope I can actually, produce the West Coast end here. I might have to go to LA to do it. Did you, did you direct a play up in Sin and Selmo a couple years ago? I did last summer. Last summer. That was great. Oh, what, what, what was it? My first live return to the theater it was Will Enos, the, the realistic Joneses. It's a very difficult play, very quirky. he says he's very influenced by Samuel Beckett, who as well as I, I mean, waiting for Goudeau is one of, if not my favorite plays. And I, I did direct a version of that very challenging, and and I could see why he says that. But it, I guess it was the, kind of the obtuse language, this sort of going nowhere kind of scenario.

59:54 Two couples, one older, one younger, both of them, the males, the males of the couples have illnesses, the same illness, and you find that out towards the end of the play. So it deals with, mortality and aging as well. It was a challenging experience though, I must say. I, I, you asked in these questions about like, failure, right? I, I don't, I wouldn't say I failed at, at, at the experience totally, but. It wasn't, I, I usually feel, you always have a sense, oh, I could do more, more. It could be more, it could be more, but I don't think it, manifested on the level that I, I wanted it to.

1:00:35 And, and some of it was really out of my control. Just the circumstances. And I think it's really hard for me as a director not to start with ground zero. I like training my actors a certain way, and I, I, if they don't have those skills, especially if I'm creating something that has a very physical vocabulary to it, I want them to be open to that. I like casting my people from the beginning. I don't like being told who I'm gonna be working with if I haven't worked with them, and I don't know if there's a compatibility, So And I just, it's just a different, I just have a very, and certain materials we talked about, you gotta go on the inside out.

1:01:19 You gotta go from the inside out, unless it's very stylized or very physical or, classical in a certain way, you have to go from the inside out. And so, sometimes actors are, are not willing to do that, So I dunno, I hear you. Yeah, no, I totally understand what you're saying. I mean, I'll, I'll just I'll be more specific so that you don't have to, I mean, I had to direct a, a piner Piner play once betrayal. And, it's sort of like that it's not linear. It requires a lot of insight out acting. And I had one actor who wasn't coming to rehearsal and I had to replace him last minute. Fortunately, I got a really good actor, but I had a, I had a weak area and it was the set designer.

1:02:06 And the set wasn't designed. And there's so many scenes and they happen like this, and you have to set something up, especially when you don't have money to make it work. And and it didn't. And, and then I let somebody else do the sound. And it wasn't interesting enough between the scene changes and people were like, why is this going on forever? You've seen changes. I mean, when you do these plays that, that are like really physical or sort of abstract or whatever, you really have, everything kind of has to fit together because there are a lot of areas that can fall down. Yeah. It has to be tight, Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the director's prerogative and the eye, and the rhythm. And you have to, you can collaborate.

1:02:46 And I, I, I know that, if you have a company and you're collaborating, right? But I know that, that the, the style now is more collaborative where everybody has a say in it, but you still have to have the leader of the ship. The, the pilot of the plane, the person that asked you to go, a hundred miles into the wall with, with you. Is that the style now? I've heard that from my, my daughter who's in the theater and my, my, actually my husband said that he's been reading a lot about, that leadership styles now are much more collaborative. Everybody feels like they have to have a say and an equal, equal, part equal, say, nothing gets decided till everybody agrees.

1:03:28 And yeah, it's a lot of time for that. That's a lot of time. And that, that has to be ground up too. That's like developing, we're all developing this together, but I've been in those situations and sometimes they work when there's a lot of trust in history and sometimes you still have to have the person that at the end of the line who says yes or no. Well, especially when you're producing a play, and as you said before, it's difficult and part of it is a financial issue. And you have 3, 4, 5 weeks maybe to put the thing together. And if there's not one person kind of making sure everything keeps driving forward, you can get way behind. Right. And, I, I see why people work together with the same people again and again.

1:04:08 Right. But then you also, oh, it's not fair. You need new blood. You're not letting anyone in the door. But, I, I just have a certain ethic, like because it's, it's how I was trained and it's like an off Broadway and off off Broadway thing, and it's, people yelling, yelling at me, right? Like, you eat me sleep theater, So I can't help it. I, I've tried to like, ease up a little when people have, hobbies and this and family and that, and I gotta go do this. I gotta surf, I gotta go eat pizza, whatever it is. But San Diego, I gotta surf. Yeah. But, there's just a, a way of ethics, like separating the, the pedestrian from, from what's more like what's the word? Sacred, the pedestrian life from what this, the sacred space is, right.

1:04:53 The empty space, And, and there's just, if you, if you don't have that, it's a disaster. You try to lay it down, you try to inculcate people, you, you try to establish that. And people still, they do what they want. They, they, they bring in all their issues and problems. They're late. I mean, if I say come to rehearsal and know your lines, you've had six months to work, since you've been cast, we don't have much time. And I don't like to do that. I like to discover and learn the lines through discovery, but sometimes you have to be pretty much off book, especially if you have a play that's very complicated or the language is very obtuse and, it's not, it's not like a typical arc and, it's very confusing and there's so many this, that, but that and you wanna nail all of them, And they don't come to rehearsal with their lines, memories.

1:05:45 And you're spending half a year rehearsal helping them memorize their lines. Oh, I know. It's just, I, I was in a play a few months ago, I won't say where or what cuz I don't wanna implicate anybody. But it was with a, a bunch of very young people and I probably was the oldest person there just because of the way the play was set up. And the director said, I want you to come in off book on the first rehearsal because we were cast like six months before. Right. So I learned all my lines and it was a lot of lines. And I walked in and we did the and I realized I was the only one out of this cast of 20 people I think who knew their lines. I was just, I couldn't believe it.

1:06:27 And, and you were probably the oldest one, right? I was. So you had the, the, you had the, the best excuse not to be memorized cuz it's harder to memorize as you age, Yeah. Yeah. Fortunately I'm still okay with that, but yeah, it is a little harder. Yeah, it is harder because I remember when I was younger, if I had to, I could, get 'em all done in a week. The world's changing. Yeah. Just as I curmudgeons, right? Yeah. It's, it's it's enough to make you wanna just throw your arms up a little bit. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm getting better though, at learning, like, it's not really worth it my time and my energy and my skills, if it's not worth it, if I get those signals that this isn't gonna work out, then I just have to follow them, even if I really wanna be doing something, And, and sometimes it's like that, I was recently gonna have a little small part and a small film here, and it was just like they were.

1:07:27 They just didn't have their organization together. there are big gaps of time where no one's communicating. they're expecting you for nine hours, then it became 12 hours and they're not necessarily gonna feed you. And it's just like, well, yeah, there's a lot of that going on with film in the Bay Area. It's a hobby. Yeah. it's a, a lot of technical people, they're doing these ultra low budget passion projects, that's what they call them. And I'm not really in, even if the script is good or the role is good, like I don't, I'm not, I, what, what's that about? It's like you're just a vehicle on someone's little hobby. It's a home movie almost. Yeah.

1:08:07 And then sometimes they don't even put it out there for anybody to see. Yeah. I've done a few things where it's okay, where's the movie? Well, I didn't really finish it. Oh yeah. Oh, you, you expect, like even on freebies, you expect credit. A copy and something that says you're gonna get a copy and you're gonna get a credit, you're gonna get paid or you're gonna get fed. I mean, right. I, I have a film, I'd like to do a short film, and I'm gonna pay, I'm gonna pay the actors and I'm gonna feed them, and I'm gonna do it. Right. what's it gonna be about? It's, it's just, I just wanna use two people and it's it's, it's again, going into the world of ai.

1:08:49 and one of the characters is kind of, is, is prescient and not quite, what the other character wanted because she's going to have feelings and discover things. So, but then there's like a, a little what's it called? These words are just escaping me. when you have an ending that's kind of like a surprise twist twist, a twist, twist ending. Okay. Yeah, there's a twist ending. So that, that's kind of where I'm at now and exploring. I just started writing it, but, I wanna, I don't wanna juggle too many balls at once, cuz then you feel like, I know people do that, but it kind of drives me crazy. So, I heard you talking about Uncanny Valley on the, on the other show and there's actually a play called Uncanny Valley.

1:09:35 I know the pair did that, right? They did. Did you see it? No. Oh no. But they did it in San Diego too, and I, I just got, became fascinated with the term, that that where it's just so, wow, this person seems human. They seem really human, but they're not. But they almost are. Right. But yeah, I really enjoyed that show. I, I, I, yeah, I wanna read it. Yeah, it's, it's really good. It's really good. There's a TV show called The Orville, that's the, the brainchild of Seth Mark Farland on Hulu. I don't know if you've heard of it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a character on there called Isaac, and he's from a species of people who are AI robots who took over their planet and killed all of the living people They find out later, wow.

1:10:24 He's on the crew of the Orville and he's that, that species of robots is at war with people from earth, although he's on the earth people's side for various reasons. But it's fascinating because he claims to have no feelings, kind of like Spock, right, in the original Sar trek. But he constantly claims that he has no feelings, and you have to believe him because he is a robot with, an ai. And he is, his intelligence is so much superior to everyone else's, however, You just don't believe him. And, and it's very confusing and it's, it's really, I love it. That's my favorite part of the show.

1:11:06 Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. You get a chance you can watch it. And the Orville Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, season one is a lot of wacky humor, sort of family guyish and I loved it. But the critics pinned it. And then as season two and three evolve, it gets more serious and more just like regular Star Trek and less humor, although he still keeps it in, but it's not so over the top. But that character is fascinating. I find him fascinating. Cause I think that's something we're gonna be dealing with. Well, we're dealing with it now. Yeah. I mean, especially with this new chat thing. This chat, G P T. Yeah. Yeah. Frightening. Frightening. Yeah. It could be, it could be so helpful to, to the world, and it could also destroy the world.

1:11:48 I, I was reading an article about the Sam, I can't remember his last name, but he's like the, the creator of the Frankenstein. And it was in the Times last week. And, he's just like, he's this young dude and he's like, I, I think it's gonna be all, I think it's gonna be okay. and it's, mm-hmm. And, and there's been like many, many AI companies that are trying to put a stop to it because they think it's out, it's gonna get outta control. I think I heard that guy talking also somewhere. Yeah. Well, we'll see. It's gonna happen fast. I'm glad I won't be alive for all of this. I, I, I have to honestly say that I'm, I'm, I, I really don't wanna be in the, in the far future where we're all robots.

1:12:32 I, I, I can't even deal with American Express or whoever else I call, and it's a robot, and I know it. And they're saying, press number one, Would you? I just can't, I just start screaming at them. You are a robot. so, and it sounds like a real person, but it doesn't. Yeah, I know, but it doesn't, there's something inside, this isn't really a person. Yeah. They're lacking that. It's the uncanny valley, right? Yeah. They're lacking like that little, the veneer or something like underneath the veneer. They're the, there any kind of relational quality, any empathy, anything, they're lacking it. You tell, I think there's gonna come a time where we won't be able to tell, and that's, it's coming already. You see some of these, these videos, what do they call 'em? When they do the deep fake? Yeah.

1:13:17 Yeah. I mean some of them are pretty good. Yeah. It's getting harder and harder to tell. And that's scary because you could have the leader of a country like waging war or something and, and he didn't really wage war. Right. On tv, Right. Well, what about that? When I was in New York, I saw this I went to the Whitney and they had a very, I think it was called reconfigured. It's a very small part, very small exhibit that they didn't really talk about it. It was like, besides their permanent collection, it was the best thing in the museum. And it, they had this whole creation of the, and they kind of morphed and deformed her. But I don't know if you remember the, the AI that Microsoft created, I think in 2016.

1:13:59 And then they had to shut it down because she was basically saying what, what, what people were telling her to say. And it was stuff like, it was anti-Semitic. It was fascist. It was misogynist. She was supposed to be like a young girl. She was just repeating like horrible things, horrible. So then, this guy created this piece about it where, and he totally deformed the face and he has her commenting on what happened to her. And it was, and it's like meta, I mean, you don't know what's real and what, and it was great. I'm like, Thanks, Amy. Covered the gamut. Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks everybody for making it there to the end.

1:14:42 I'm so glad that you stuck around and if you enjoyed this, which I'm sure you did, please give me a rating on Apple Podcast, a favorable rating, and tell your friends about this so that we can get more listeners. And again, until next time, I will see you on the boards. Take care of yourselves, babe, baby.